What's the solution to this question?
What's a good first glider for someone transitioning from a CS77 and
wanting the following:
- automatic hookups
- easy to rig
- flaps
- well behaved in terms of stall/spin, and
- climbs well in weak conditions and runs reasonably well in average
east coast conditions

Budget? Say 20-60k US, depending whether I go alone or with 1 or 2
partners.

Thanks.
Wad.

On Nov 1, 8:44 pm, Waduino > wrote:
> What's the solution to this question?
> What's a good first glider for someone transitioning from a CS77 and
> wanting the following:
> - automatic hookups
> - easy to rig
> - flaps
> - well behaved in terms of stall/spin, and
> - climbs well in weak conditions and runs reasonably well in average
> east coast conditions
>
> Budget? Say 20-60k US, depending whether I go alone or with 1 or 2
> partners.
>
> Thanks.
> Wad.

Ok, this is going to be a long thread.

My list of candidates:
What you didn't say is if you want to race someday in 15M class

LS-3/A
Glasflugel 303 Mosquito
Glasflugel 304CZ
DG200
LS-6

For slightly more advanced pilots
ASW-20 A/B/C
Ventus A/B/C

Some of these have automatic control hookups and some do not (even in
the same year and between models) Ventus Ca's can have manual hookups
into the 1990's.

The LS ships are high on my list. The 6 is nearly as competitive as
newer ships, the LS-3 is known for great handling as well as the
Glasflugels.

I fly a Ventus B because I could find one when I was looking and the
LS-6's were few and far between. For the $$$ the LS-3's are hard to
be beat. The ASW-20's are great on the ridges with a softer ride.

Find a ship in good shape (a refinish will cost nearly $25K today) and
look for a good trailer as well (nearly as important as the ship).

Review Pez for buying instructions and have fun.

> My list of candidates:
> What you didn't say is if you want to race someday in 15M class
>
> LS-3/A
> Glasflugel 303 Mosquito
> Glasflugel 304CZ
> DG200
> LS-6
>
> For slightly more advanced pilots
> ASW-20 A/B/C
> Ventus A/B/C
>

That looks a lot like my short list, BUT the LS-3 (and less so the 3A)
has fairly heavy wings and hotelier connections, I believe. So I'm not
crazy about that choice. The Mosquito sounds like a great choice, but
again I wonder about wing weight. [We rig on grass and a one-man
rigging thingie is not that easy to operate in a lumpy field]

Am I being silly in putting automatic connection so high on my list?
It just seems sensible to me and perhaps something that would make the
ship more marketable when I decide to move on or out in a few years.

Wad.

On Nov 2, 6:15 am, Waduino > wrote:
> > My list of candidates:
> > What you didn't say is if you want to race someday in 15M class
>
> > LS-3/A
> > Glasflugel 303 Mosquito
> > Glasflugel 304CZ
> > DG200
> > LS-6
>
> > For slightly more advanced pilots
> > ASW-20 A/B/C
> > Ventus A/B/C
>
> That looks a lot like my short list, BUT the LS-3 (and less so the 3A)
> has fairly heavy wings and hotelier connections, I believe. So I'm not
> crazy about that choice. The Mosquito sounds like a great choice, but
> again I wonder about wing weight. [We rig on grass and a one-man
> rigging thingie is not that easy to operate in a lumpy field]
>
> Am I being silly in putting automatic connection so high on my list?
> It just seems sensible to me and perhaps something that would make the
> ship more marketable when I decide to move on or out in a few years.
>
> Wad.

Buy as much performance as you can and don't look back...

On Nov 1, 7:44 pm, Waduino > wrote:
> What's the solution to this question?
> What's a good first glider for someone transitioning from a CS77 and
> wanting the following:
> - automatic hookups
> - easy to rig
> - flaps
> - well behaved in terms of stall/spin, and
> - climbs well in weak conditions and runs reasonably well in average
> east coast conditions
>
> Budget? Say 20-60k US, depending whether I go alone or with 1 or 2
> partners.
>
> Thanks.
> Wad.

I love my Mini-Nimbus. Good climber, great in light conditions.
Handles great and lands astonishingly well.
Automatic hook ups and lots of room.
There is one on Wings and Wheels in Ohio last I looked.

Waduino wrote:
>> My list of candidates:
>> What you didn't say is if you want to race someday in 15M class
>>
>> LS-3/A
>> Glasflugel 303 Mosquito
>> Glasflugel 304CZ
>> DG200
>> LS-6
>>
>> For slightly more advanced pilots
>> ASW-20 A/B/C
>> Ventus A/B/C
>>
>
> That looks a lot like my short list, BUT the LS-3 (and less so the 3A)
> has fairly heavy wings and hotelier connections, I believe. So I'm not
> crazy about that choice. The Mosquito sounds like a great choice, but
> again I wonder about wing weight. [We rig on grass and a one-man
> rigging thingie is not that easy to operate in a lumpy field]
>
> Am I being silly in putting automatic connection so high on my list?
> It just seems sensible to me and perhaps something that would make the
> ship more marketable when I decide to move on or out in a few years.
>
> Wad.
>
If you're OK with 1st-generation, 15-meter performance, Zuni's fit your
criteria.

For any of a number of reasons (e.g. large-deflection flaps *only* [i.e.
no spoilers], side stick [in as-built Zuni-I's...parallellogram center
stick in Zuni II's and some modified Zuni I's], non-German glass, a
high-profile fatality in the prototype, all-flying tail, probably some
other items I'm forgetting...), it tends to be overlooked/dissed by fans
of groupthink.

Nonetheless, its Wortmann FX-67-K-170/150 airfoils are relentlessly
docile, and were used by many 1st-generation glass ships (e.g. Nimbus
II, (metal) Nugget, PIK-20, Mini-Nimbus, Vega, and probably more. Come
to think of it, the last two ships in that list *might* also fit your
auto-connection criteria (I'm hands-on familiar only w. the Zuni).

Zuni's are not all that common (~20 manufactured), but for all the above
reasons, the price tends to be right when they do come on the market.
I've been flying S/N 3 since '81; hopped into it w. ~400 total
hours...and it hasn't killed me (or even scared me too much :-)) yet.

In any event, have fun looking...and buying...and SOARing!!!

Regards,
Bob - YMMV - W.

P.S. To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever died from failing to
connect a self-connecting sailplane connection. Personally, I think
self-connections are a HUGE safety feature, regardless of how paranoid,
safety-conscious, or disciplined someone is. They're also hugely
convenient. FWIW, my present perspective arose only after purchasing a
Zuni. In any event *I* don't think you're being silly in placing
auto-connection high on your personal list. Moreover, you know yourself
better than anyone else.

>
> Am I being silly in putting automatic connection so high on my list?
> It just seems sensible to me and perhaps something that would make the
> ship more marketable when I decide to move on or out in a few years.
>

No you're not! One of the reasons I upgraded from an ASW-20 to a
Discus 2 was for the automatic connections.

With the constraints you have, I think you should take a good look at
the 304CZ. I nearly bought one myself and can testify the handling is
very good. Being a newer ship, you won't have to worry about
refinishing and it should come with modern instruments and a decent
trailer (things you don't mention, but which I think are important).
With the 17-meter wings, it should be a good match for your east-coast
conditions. Its performance isn't far shy of that of the ASW-20.

Overall, German-built gliders have more brand equity than those from
other countries, but the 304 CZ has a loyal following in the USA and
used ones seem to hold their price and sell quickly.

Mike

Waduino wrote:
>> My list of candidates:
>> What you didn't say is if you want to race someday in 15M class
>>
>> LS-3/A
>> Glasflugel 303 Mosquito
>> Glasflugel 304CZ
>> DG200
>> LS-6
>>
>> For slightly more advanced pilots
>> ASW-20 A/B/C
>> Ventus A/B/C
>>
>
> That looks a lot like my short list, BUT the LS-3 (and less so the 3A)
> has fairly heavy wings and hotelier connections, I believe. So I'm not
> crazy about that choice. The Mosquito sounds like a great choice, but
> again I wonder about wing weight. [We rig on grass and a one-man
> rigging thingie is not that easy to operate in a lumpy field]
>
> Am I being silly in putting automatic connection so high on my list?
> It just seems sensible to me and perhaps something that would make the
> ship more marketable when I decide to move on or out in a few years.

You aren't being at all silly, I've lost two friends and two others
severely injured due to improperly connected controls (all were
experienced pilots, and in some cases, a positive control check was
apparently done). In particular, I won't even consider a glider with a
manual hookup on the elevator. From the above list:

LS-3A - wings similar in weight to other flapped gliders of the
era, I believe the flaperons are the only manual hookup,
accessible outside the fuselage, no hoteliers.

LS-3 - wings are quite heavy due to extra mass balance, otherwise
similar to A

DG-200 - automatic elevator hookup, rest manual, good access

LS-6 - manual flaperon hookup that is not visible except
through use of mirrors, history of disconnect accidents

ASW-20(A) - manual hookup on all controls, missed elevator
hookup has killed a number of pilots.

ASW-20B/C - automatic elevator hookup, other controls manual
hookup but reasonably accessible.

As others have mentioned, the Mini-Nimbus has automatic hookups, good
performance, and decent handling (particularly the later ones with
conventional elevator). The Mosquito shares the same wing, with nicer
handling, but slightly less performance.

In my opinion, the manual hookups on the LS-3A, ASW-20B or C, and DG-200
are not as big a problem as some other gliders, as there is no elevator
connection to miss, and the hookups are accessible and easy to inspect.
They are also great handling gliders with decent cross-country
performance. The 20B is noticeably heavier than the 20C, and as a
result suffers a bit in climb.

If one really wants to race 15M, and doesn't want to spend a fortune,
the Ventus B has automatic hookups, but is a bit of a challenge to fly
well, and I found it tiring after a few hours. The LS-6 is a delightful
glider in flight, but I personally would think twice about buying one
because of the flaperon hookups.

Of course, the ASW-27, Ventus 2, and LAK-17A are all great modern
gliders once you get them sorted out, if you can afford them...

Marc

On Nov 2, 7:15 am, Waduino > wrote:

> ...Am I being silly in putting automatic connection
> so high on my list?...

I certainly don't think so.

My friend Steve Smith has calculated that, overall, there is an
uncorrected connection fault in about 1 of every 1000 times a
sailplane is assembled, and that about 50% of those connection faults
result in a fatal accident. The other 50% aren't that pretty either.

Given those numbers, in a contest season of 2000 assemblies you'd see
about one fatality every year. My memory is far from perfect, but It
seems that that's what we saw through the 1990s.

As another poster wrote, the numbers get a helluva lot better once you
have auto connects for at least the primary flight controls. I don't
know of any accidents or even incidents where the standard arm-in-
funnel or pin-in-slot torsional auto-connects failed to engage.

Thanks, Bob K.

Marc Ramsey wrote:
> Waduino wrote:
>>> My list of candidates:
>>> What you didn't say is if you want to race someday in 15M class
>>>
>>> LS-3/A
>>> Glasflugel 303 Mosquito
>>> Glasflugel 304CZ
>>> DG200
>>> LS-6
>>>
>>> For slightly more advanced pilots
>>> ASW-20 A/B/C
>>> Ventus A/B/C
>>>
>>
>> That looks a lot like my short list, BUT the LS-3 (and less so the 3A)
>> has fairly heavy wings and hotelier connections, I believe. So I'm not
>> crazy about that choice. The Mosquito sounds like a great choice, but
>> again I wonder about wing weight. [We rig on grass and a one-man
>> rigging thingie is not that easy to operate in a lumpy field]
>>
>> Am I being silly in putting automatic connection so high on my list?
>> It just seems sensible to me and perhaps something that would make the
>> ship more marketable when I decide to move on or out in a few years.
>
> You aren't being at all silly, I've lost two friends and two others
> severely injured due to improperly connected controls (all were
> experienced pilots, and in some cases, a positive control check was
> apparently done). In particular, I won't even consider a glider with a
> manual hookup on the elevator. From the above list:
>
> LS-3A - wings similar in weight to other flapped gliders of the
> era, I believe the flaperons are the only manual hookup,
> accessible outside the fuselage, no hoteliers.
>
> LS-3 - wings are quite heavy due to extra mass balance, otherwise
> similar to A
>
> DG-200 - automatic elevator hookup, rest manual, good access
>
> LS-6 - manual flaperon hookup that is not visible except
> through use of mirrors, history of disconnect accidents
>
> ASW-20(A) - manual hookup on all controls, missed elevator
> hookup has killed a number of pilots.
>
> ASW-20B/C - automatic elevator hookup, other controls manual
> hookup but reasonably accessible.
>
> As others have mentioned, the Mini-Nimbus has automatic hookups, good
> performance, and decent handling (particularly the later ones with
> conventional elevator). The Mosquito shares the same wing, with nicer
> handling, but slightly less performance.
>
> In my opinion, the manual hookups on the LS-3A, ASW-20B or C, and DG-200
> are not as big a problem as some other gliders, as there is no elevator
> connection to miss, and the hookups are accessible and easy to inspect.
> They are also great handling gliders with decent cross-country
> performance. The 20B is noticeably heavier than the 20C, and as a
> result suffers a bit in climb.
>
> If one really wants to race 15M, and doesn't want to spend a fortune,
> the Ventus B has automatic hookups, but is a bit of a challenge to fly
> well, and I found it tiring after a few hours. The LS-6 is a delightful
> glider in flight, but I personally would think twice about buying one
> because of the flaperon hookups.
>
> Of course, the ASW-27, Ventus 2, and LAK-17A are all great modern
> gliders once you get them sorted out, if you can afford them...
>
> Marc
>
The LS-6C has auto-hookups, but they are pretty rare in North America.

I've owned an ASW20 and LS-6b in the past. Both were great gliders. I
used auto-hookups as one of my rationalizations for getting my current
ASW27b, which is an incredible glider by the way. Might be reachable
with a three-way ;).

At the low end of your range a nice Mosquito would be a good choice. At
the upper end, an LS-6C or a 304CZ. A good Ventus B or C could be in the
middle. The Ventus is the only one of those with "light" wings, but none
are hard to rig.

Dave

On Nov 2, 7:15 am, Waduino > wrote:

> Am I being silly in putting automatic connection so high on my list?
> It just seems sensible to me and perhaps something that would make the
> ship more marketable when I decide to move on or out in a few years.

I would not turn down a glider that met my needs because if had manual
control connections. However I would never fly a glider with manual
connections that were not safetied.

I used safety pins on my ASW19b. They hung in the cockpit when the
glider was not assembled and were in view if I was stupid enough, or
distracted enough, to get in with out fitting them. Yes I know its
still possible to screw up but controls have failed on gliders with
automatic connection too. Use safeties and always do a positive
control check and the risks of manual hook ups are acceptable in my
opinion.


Andy

On Nov 2, 10:50 am, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
> On Nov 2, 7:15 am, Waduino > wrote:
>
> > ...Am I being silly in putting automatic connection
> > so high on my list?...
>
> I certainly don't think so.

Bob,

Can you, or anyone else, point to any accident that was caused by
incorrectly assembled Hoteliers when a safety device, such as a pin,
was installed in all fittings. I know of none.

I used to carry spare pins and give them to other pilots had had not
previously used them.

Andy

On Nov 1, 10:44 pm, Waduino > wrote:
> What's the solution to this question?
> What's a good first glider for someone transitioning from a CS77 and
> wanting the following:
> - automatic hookups
> - easy to rig
> - flaps
> - well behaved in terms of stall/spin, and
> - climbs well in weak conditions and runs reasonably well in average
> east coast conditions
>
> Budget? Say 20-60k US, depending whether I go alone or with 1 or 2
> partners.
>
> Thanks.
> Wad.

Other than flaps, the ships that come to mind are Discus and ASW-24.
In the East you go almost as
fast with Std ship. Both are very nice to fly and have automatic
everything. Throw the LS-4 in also though
I think you may be hooking up controls on that.
Other than '20, flaps don't get you much in landing. Most 15M ships
don't have enough flap
deflection to be really useful.
If flaps are important to you, look very seriously at the '20. A model
will land anywhere. That said, they are heavier to rig and a bit more
complex to fly, C has auto elevator- the most important in my view. A
can be retrofitted.
Ya gotta figure out what is most important to you.
Good luck
UH

Whaddo I know:
If you're not over 6' (183cm) tall or too broad, buy P7. It meets
all your listed requirements.
Don't expect to accomplish everything it's seller has done in the
Ventus, most of us can't figure out how he does it.

However I think that the automatic control hookup thing is a little
overrated.
....As the crowd are loading rifles, I can say I've had a L'Hotellier
fail in flight, and landed safely.
It was an LS-6a with the LS sleeves in place. The spring in the
L'Hotellier failed.

If pilots don't want to be responsible for a proper preflight and
positive control check (also known as a D.I.), there are other things
are likely botched up. For example, it's possible to launch a few
gliders with the MAIN SPAR PIN missing! That could spoil your day.

My next launch will be in a glider with ten control hookups I am
responsible to connect (six with Wedekind sleeves, four with attached
safety pins), plus three spar pins to install and safety. The glider
cost half what the newer one with automatic connections would have
been, and according to some pilots who have owned both, has similar
performance.
Jim

Automatic hookups are nice, but a good preflight is better.

Anyone who thinks LS6 connectors are hard to connect and inspect
hasn't rigged an LS6. Very easy to see and touch, and the pilot can
easily perform a positive control check on the flaperons himself by
standing behind the wings next to the fuselage and holding both
flaperons at the same time. Easy to check for secure connection and
full and free deflection, and you can watch the stick move at the same
time. Nice.

Since the airbrakes do not suck out at aerotow speeds, they are a lot
less critical. Elevator is automatic.

That aside, the 6's flaps help a little in slowing down for landing,
but nowhere near like a 20 or Ventus B.

Sure flies nice, though!

That being said - Performance, trailer, instruments, finish, hookups;
all should be looked at.

Nobody said it would be easy!

Good luck finding your new toy.

Kirk
66

Andy wrote:
> Can you, or anyone else, point to any accident that was caused by
> incorrectly assembled Hoteliers when a safety device, such as a pin,
> was installed in all fittings. I know of none.

I agree that safety pins pretty much do the job if properly installed an
verified. I have my doubts about sleeves, as I know of a number of
accidents where they were used, allegedly positively checked, and the
connections came apart after takeoff. I have demonstrated to myself
that you can slide a sleeve far enough closed with the ball out of the
socket to pass a half-hearted control check.

> I used to carry spare pins and give them to other pilots had had not
> previously used them.

My real issue isn't so much with Hoteliers as they work fine when
connected properly and pinned. My problem is with myself, as I know
perfectly well that I might get it right 99.9% of the time, but all it
takes is a slight distraction to get it wrong once...

Marc

On Nov 2, 7:15 am, Waduino > wrote:
[We rig on grass and a one-man
> rigging thingie is not that easy to operate in a lumpy field]

You don't need to shy away from heavy wings anymore because Mesa
Inventore Corp, has a slick 3-wheel "wing rigger" that rolls just fine
over rough ground and the third wheel keeps it standing upright
without the little stabilizing bar that always seems to dig into soft
ground. Breaks down into small pieces. I'd consider ther LS-3 a good
candidate with a Wing Rigger, so is the DG-200, etc. E-mail me for the
address for Mesa Invention Corp.
JJ

kirk.stant wrote:
> Automatic hookups are nice, but a good preflight is better.

Both is best...

> Anyone who thinks LS6 connectors are hard to connect and inspect
> hasn't rigged an LS6. Very easy to see and touch, and the pilot can
> easily perform a positive control check on the flaperons himself by
> standing behind the wings next to the fuselage and holding both
> flaperons at the same time. Easy to check for secure connection and
> full and free deflection, and you can watch the stick move at the same
> time. Nice.

I have a couple of times and couldn't see a thing, I could only verify
by feel and tugging on the flaperons. I often see owners with
inspection mirrors peeking inside. If I remember correctly, the
connection is somewhere behind the spar, is there a trick to seeing it?

Beyond that, the fact that I know two very experienced long term LS6
owners who managed to screw up that connection is the main reason I shy
away from them...

Marc

Andy wrote:
>
> Can you, or anyone else, point to any accident that was caused by
> incorrectly assembled Hoteliers when a safety device, such as a pin,
> was installed in all fittings. I know of none.
>
The ASW-20 is the only one of these I've rigged and flown. The hatch
giving access to the wing Hoteliers (aileron, brake, flap connections)
is too small to put two hands through, so you have to connect the wing
controls one handed and mostly by touch. Mine had Weedekind locking
sleeves fitted to the Hoteliers. I wouldn't touch an ASW-20 without them
because they make checking the connections by touch so much easier.

> I used to carry spare pins and give them to other pilots had had not
> previously used them.
>
I can't imagine putting pins into the wing Hoteliers on an ASW-20 rather
than using Weedekind sleeves, but ymmv.

OTOH I had no problem with the pin on the elevator Hotelier because its
out in the open where you can see what you're doing from both sides and
the rear.

If you're rigging a glider with Hoteliers you MUST NOT allow anybody to
distract you while you connect them up. Then you or somebody you trust
MUST go round and check them again before you do positives. IMHO
positives are mandatory every time the glider is rigged and should be
repeated before flying it every day even if its been left rigged overnight.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

See the Wing Rigger at>>>>>wingrigger.com<<<<

> You don't need to shy away from heavy wings anymore because Mesa
> Inventore Corp, has a slick 3-wheel "wing rigger" that rolls just fine
> over rough ground and the third wheel keeps it standing upright
> without the little stabilizing bar that always seems to dig into soft
> ground. Breaks down into small pieces. I'd consider ther LS-3 a good
> candidate with a Wing Rigger, so is the DG-200, etc. E-mail me for the
> address for Mesa Invention Corp.
> JJ

There are plenty of very good gliders that don't have
self-connecting controls, don't let that put you off
buying them; unless you think you are the sort of idiot
that will take-off without having the connections checked.


At 02:48 02 November 2007, Waduino wrote:
>What's the solution to this question?
>What's a good first glider for someone transitioning
>from a CS77 and
>wanting the following:
>- automatic hookups
>- easy to rig
>- flaps
>- well behaved in terms of stall/spin, and
>- climbs well in weak conditions and runs reasonably
>well in average
>east coast conditions
>
>Budget? Say 20-60k US, depending whether I go alone
>or with 1 or 2
>partners.
>
>Thanks.
>Wad.
>
>

Unfortunately relying on being less of an idiot than others does not
always seem to work as a safety approach. :-(

So personally I had automatic control hookups on my requirement list
in my early glider purchase decisions.

On the other hand what is it with people still not doing positive
control checks. On any glider manual or automatic hookup (and I am
aware of incidents with failure of automatic hookups). I threatened
not to run one guys wing earlier this season because he had not done a
positive check and instead was standing around chatting to people
waiting for a tow - and he was about to tow a matter of a few hundred
feet from where somebody had been killed a few years ago from guess
what... not having controls connected.

Sigh.


Darryl

On Nov 2, 5:39 pm, Mark Dickson
> wrote:
> There are plenty of very good gliders that don't have
> self-connecting controls, don't let that put you off
> buying them; unless you think you are the sort of idiot
> that will take-off without having the connections checked.
>
> At 02:48 02 November 2007, Waduino wrote:
>
> >What's the solution to this question?
> >What's a good first glider for someone transitioning
> >from a CS77 and
> >wanting the following:
> >- automatic hookups
> >- easy to rig
> >- flaps
> >- well behaved in terms of stall/spin, and
> >- climbs well in weak conditions and runs reasonably
> >well in average
> >east coast conditions
>
> >Budget? Say 20-60k US, depending whether I go alone
> >or with 1 or 2
> >partners.
>
> >Thanks.
> >Wad.

Wad,

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the LS8. I don't know market value
on this ship right now, but I would imagine a used "straight 8", i.e.,
15m wingspan only and not the 15/18m version, might be had for $60k.
Well, maybe not. These are still competitive ships. Damned good
ones, too. They have automatic connections, assemble very easily, and
go VERY WELL.

Wings seem a bit heavy (I'm the guy out on the tips, so I know the
wings are heavier than ASW-20C, Discus CS, ASW-24, Standard Cirrus,
LS1-f, and Libelle 301. These are the other ships at my club that I
get to help assemble.) But the LS8 goes together so quickly that I
don't have to hold them very long.

So, I would definitely add the LS8 to your list.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
LS1-d

rlovinggood wrote:
> So, I would definitely add the LS8 to your list.

Given that "flaps" were his second priority after "easy to rig", that
could be fixed with a hack saw and a bit of time...

On Nov 2, 10:23 pm, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
> rlovinggood wrote:
> > So, I would definitely add the LS8 to your list.
>
> Given that "flaps" were his second priority after "easy to rig", that
> could be fixed with a hack saw and a bit of time...

Marc,

Yes, yes, yes. He did mention flaps, but as UH mentioned, on the East
Coast, Standard Class ships do quite well and go "almost" as fast
(sometimes faster?) than the flapped variety.

Do you really need a hacksaw, or can you just add a "dummy" lever on
the left side of the cockpit, in order to give the left hand something
to do during flight?

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
LS1-d

rlovinggood wrote:
> Yes, yes, yes. He did mention flaps, but as UH mentioned, on the East
> Coast, Standard Class ships do quite well and go "almost" as fast
> (sometimes faster?) than the flapped variety.
>
> Do you really need a hacksaw, or can you just add a "dummy" lever on
> the left side of the cockpit, in order to give the left hand something
> to do during flight?

I think you and UH see flaps as just a go fast option, for a lot of us,
flaps are for going slow when we're trying to land in little dinky fields...

Marc

On Nov 2, 10:05 pm, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
> rlovinggood wrote:
> > Yes, yes, yes. He did mention flaps, but as UH mentioned, on the East
> > Coast, Standard Class ships do quite well and go "almost" as fast
> > (sometimes faster?) than the flapped variety.
>
> > Do you really need a hacksaw, or can you just add a "dummy" lever on
> > the left side of the cockpit, in order to give the left hand something
> > to do during flight?
>
> I think you and UH see flaps as just a go fast option, for a lot of us,
> flaps are for going slow when we're trying to land in little dinky fields...
>
> Marc

20 and 24 are still wood gliders : look inside
SZD-55 has automatic hookups, no wood, big tanks for ridge, light
wings for assy,
Look at last Sunday OLC 1010 km from Mifflin.
RW

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Nov 2, 10:05 pm, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
>
> 20 and 24 are still wood gliders : look inside
> SZD-55 has automatic hookups, no wood, big tanks for ridge, light
> wings for assy,
> Look at last Sunday OLC 1010 km from Mifflin.
> RW
>
And what exactly is the problem with a bit of aviation birch or mahogany
plywood?

On Nov 1, 10:44 pm, Waduino > wrote:
> What's the solution to this question?
> What's a good first glider for someone transitioning from a CS77 and
> wanting the following:
> - automatic hookups
> - easy to rig
> - flaps
> - well behaved in terms of stall/spin, and
> - climbs well in weak conditions and runs reasonably well in average
> east coast conditions
>
> Budget? Say 20-60k US, depending whether I go alone or with 1 or 2
> partners.
>
> Thanks.
> Wad.

L/D =$/Distance. Tthat's what you are looking for?.
SZD55 kicks any asses

One thing missed in this discussion (unless I didn't see it) is
comfort. We spend a lot of time in our gliders and they should be
comfortable. That includes control system forces. And no one glider
is comfortable for everyone.

On Nov 2, 4:06 pm, Martin Gregorie > wrote:
> I can't imagine putting pins into the wing Hoteliers on an ASW-20 rather
> than using Weedekind sleeves, but ymmv.

If I recall correctly (it's been about 7 years), I had all 6 safety
pins on my ASW-20B installed in WELL under a minute. Bought the
Wedekind sleeves, but never got around to installing them...

-Tom

> I have a couple of times and couldn't see a thing, I could only verify
> by feel and tugging on the flaperons. I often see owners with
> inspection mirrors peeking inside. If I remember correctly, the
> connection is somewhere behind the spar, is there a trick to seeing it?

No trick, seriously:

You just reach in and hook them up by feel - one hand on the
connector, and other hand on the control (stick or dive brake) to move
to the right position to snap in place. Verify the ball is in the
socket, then screw the safety all the way on. THEN: Look through the
opening and you can see all 4 connections, directly and on the mirrors
installed by LS behind them. Sleeves are color coded to show if they
are not correctly hooked up.

No additional inspection mirrors needed, since they are already
installed in the ship!

I really fail to see how it could be any easier - except of course,
automatic hookups a la LS6-c...

> Beyond that, the fact that I know two very experienced long term LS6
> owners who managed to screw up that connection is the main reason I shy
> away from them...

In the above sentence, replace LS6 with just about any glider,
including those with automatic hookups, and it will still be true.
Anything mechanical can fail or be mishandled...

Anyway, I hope you like your ship, cuz I love mine!

Kirk

> You just reach in and hook them up by feel - one hand on the
> connector, and other hand on the control (stick or dive brake) to move
> to the right position to snap in place. Verify the ball is in the
> socket,


Right, that's what I do on my 6b.


then screw the safety all the way on.


Before I do that, I try to pull the connections apart (thanks to Dave
Nadler for that suggestion).


THEN: Look through the
> opening and you can see all 4 connections, directly and on the mirrors
> installed by LS behind them. Sleeves are color coded to show if they
> are not correctly hooked up.


Tony V. LS6-b "6N"

On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 13:27:16 +0100, Asbjorn Hojmark
> wrote:

>On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 22:06:43 +0000, Martin Gregorie
> wrote:
>
>> IMHO positives are mandatory every time the glider is rigged and
>> should be repeated before flying it every day even if its been left
>> rigged overnight.
>
>Isn't that a requirement in the UK? It is here in Denmark.
>
Yes it is, but not, apparently in the USA judging by all the comments
I've seen on r.a.s.

On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 13:27:16 +0100, Asbjorn Hojmark
> wrote:

>On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 22:06:43 +0000, Martin Gregorie
> wrote:
>
>> IMHO positives are mandatory every time the glider is rigged and
>> should be repeated before flying it every day even if its been left
>> rigged overnight.
>
>Isn't that a requirement in the UK? It is here in Denmark.
>
Yes it is. However it apparently isn't in the USA judging from
comments on r.a.s since I've been reading it. My comments were aimed
at those who think its optional and as a reminder to be careful with
Hoteliers fitted in dark hidey holes.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Glider pilot and
org | Zappa fan.